Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 10 Apr

Thursday 10 April 2014

The Defence of Stuart Kuttner Continues
Stuart Kuttner is Cross-Examined by Counsel for Clive Goodman
Payments to False Names
Kuttners relationship with Clive Goodman
Andy Coulson becomes Editor – Neil Wallis Deputy Editor
Cash Payments
Goodman’s Demotion
Kuttner does not recollect Alec Hall
Kuttner’s meetings with Clive Goodman after his arrest
Kuttner meeting at the Sun
Payments to Mulcaire continue
Kuttner’s opinion of Goodman and Mulcaire
The Alexander Project
Stuart Kuttner is Cross-Examined by the Prosecution
Kuttner questioned on his meeting with Clive Goodman
Stuart Kuttner Defence Witness – Lord Carey
Lord Carey is questioned on his knowledge of Stuart Kuttner
Stuart Kuttner’s Cross-Examined by the Prosecution continues
Kuttner questioned further on his meeting with Clive Goodman
Kuttner’s trust of journalists and payments
Glen Mulcaire
Paying Police Officers
Kuttner’s medical condition
Private Investigators

The Defence of Stuart Kuttner Continues
Stuart Kuttner is Cross-Examined by Counsel for Clive Goodman
Back with Stuart Kuttner in the witness box of the #hackingtrial – being cross examined by David Spens QC, counsel for Clive Goodman
Spens points out that Kuttner has “very complimentary things to say about Mr Coulson…. but not a single good word to say about Mr Goodman”
“Is there anything you’ve said about Mr Goodman…. that is remotely complimentary?” asks Spens. Kuttner: “I trusted him for many years”
Spens picks up Kuttner’s words that he’d “indulged” Clive Goodman. He points out how Rebekah Brooks promoted Goodman in June 2001
“That was a promotion on merit… not an indulgence” says Spens of Goodman’s promotion. “I don’t remember that episode” says Kuttner
“He’d obviously done something right, Mr Goodman, to get that promotion” says Spens. “I don’t recall” says Kuttner.
“There seemed to be an unending and unnecessary tension about who he reported to” says Kuttner of Clive Goodman.
Kuttner cannot recall the details of the promotion of Goodman to editorial management budget, away from reporting to news desk.
“Without trying to reconstruct the past or speculate…. I do not know why the switch was made” says Kuttner of Goodman’s promotion in 2001
16/07/01 memo from Kuttner to Rebekah Brooks on Goodman and another NOTW journalist being “accommodated in editorial management budget”
“It wasn’t some indulgence he was appointed to editorial team, and it wasn’t Mr Coulson but Rebekah Brooks who promoted him” says Spens
Payments to False Names
Spens turns to Kuttner’s evidence that he never knew of sources being paid in ‘false names”: he says was already widespread at NOTW in 1986
Kuttner says it’s “nonsensical” to suggest he knew of false names and addresses for sources.
Kuttner explains how Paul Nicholas worked with him “not terribly closely… Paul is quite an individual person…. not mirror myself”
Kuttner doesn’t accept he worked in “tandem” with Paul Nicholas: his deputy as managing editor at NOTW.
24/08/05 Paul Nicholas emails NOTW editors about cash payments. Spens reads part of it.
This Nicholas email to Kuttner says of Goodman “virtually all his payments for Blackadder are for cash” and paying NI and Tax
Kuttner agrees that the payee must have passed on details of name and address to tax authorities in order to pay the tax.
Spens: “I’m suggesting to you…. all knew these protected sources were paid with false names and addresses” Kuttner: “that is not true”
“I did not spend a lifetime in journalism to falsify dockets” Kuttner tells the jury at the #hackingtrial
Kuttners relationship with Clive Goodman
“You bear some animosity to Mr Goodman don’t you?” asks Spens. “I’m disappointed in Mr Goodman” says Kuttner.
Spens contends Kuttner had a difficult relationship with Goodman since 1992. “I don’t accept animosity” says Kuttner.
“There are instances he rejected information which was important… refused to follow stories…” says Kuttner
“I simply do not believe as a veteran journalist that is the best way to conduct yourself,” Kuttner says of Goodman
Spens talks about a Nick Davies (Mirror not Guardian) journalist 1992 book written as a “match” for the Morton Book: Diana her True Story
Spens says Kuttner asked Goodman to provide background stories for his friend’s Diana book. Kuttner doesn’t recollect this.
“One of the rumours of the forthcoming Morton book was rumours of a suicide bid by Princess Diana” says Spens. Kuttner does not remember
Kuttner says he cannot the false story of Diana’s attempted suicide appearing in a rival newspapers by Nick Davies to plug his book
Spens contends that Goodman had a furious row with Kuttner because he “leaked” info to Mirror journalist: “Completely and utterly false”
“I did not at any time leak information” says Kuttner emphatically
Spens contends that Goodman emailed him on two things: the first on processing credits, and the leader writing duties they shared at NOTW.
Spens says Kuttner needed to be “chased”: because he was “very slow to sign off anyone’s credits”. Kuttner says he has a witness to contrary
“That is completely false” says Kuttner to “liking to make people wait”. He says he was quick and took work home.
Spens contends that Kuttner was “very slow” to sign off Goodman’s credits. “Did you deliberately make Mr Goodman wait?” “No, I did not”
Kuttner says he “tried to run a tightish ship” on contributor payments: Spens says even more so on cash payments because of tax overhead
“I looked for value for money” says Kuttner. He agrees they had back copies of NOTW to check contributions against columns in paper
Kuttner agrees he ‘trusted’ staff. He agrees he might have visited staff, unannounced on extend sick leave. Spens: “Not wholly trusting?”
“There was a culture at NI of looking after people, a culture that flows from Mr Rupert Murdoch downwards” says Kuttner.
“As I repeatedly told the police I took a macro attitude to management of the budget” says Kuttner of his style
Kuttner denies he had a reputation for “extreme scrutiny” or that he “kept an eagle eye on every pound”
Kuttner also denies there was no “court of appeal” against his judgements. He says if there was a dispute it would go the editor.
Kuttner previously described Goodman as “an enigma who didn’t want to travel” but he did sign off his travel expenses “up to a point”
Spens contends that Goodman was the “most travelled reporter, internationally, on the whole paper”: Kuttner can’t remember that.
Kuttner agrees that from memory he thinks Goodman was an “early starter”.
Spens contends that Goodman didn’t want to go out “on half baked tips”. “It’s not up to the journalist to decide if half baked” says Kuttner
Kuttner agrees that Goodman and management disagreed often about going out to follow stories.
Spens talks about Kuttner and Brooks’ trip to Paris to sign up Bryan for a story about a royal affair.
Kuttner says they signed up Bryan – and secured the story. Spens says he was already signed up.
Andy Coulson becomes Editor – Neil Wallis Deputy Editor
12/01/03 Coulson was appointed editor of NOTW. Neil Wallis arrived as his deputy the same month says David Spens QC.
Wallis had been deputy editor of the Sun, and then editor of the People: Kuttner agrees he had been an expert on “hard news”
Kuttner is asked whether Neil Wallis “was Mr Coulson’s choice?”: he doesn’t know if Wallis was the choice of someone more senior.
Kuttner agrees Coulson’s previous experience was in showbusiness: Spens says he didn’t have hard news experience.
Kuttner remembers Wallis’ nickname ‘Wolfman’: he describes him as “focused, direct and sometimes quite tough”:
“He was a bully” says Spens of Wallis. Kuttner denies this. He says Wallis talked “directly” to reporters. “Quite a lot of shouting goes on”
“Perhaps more than most” says Kuttner of Wallis’ raising his voice to staff at NOTW.
Spens turns back to Kuttner’s evidence yesterday about “important one fact stories” and having only one shot a week at NOTW.
Kuttner agrees a leak could be “devastating” to NOTW. He also confirms the “secret room” to prevent leaks to rivals.
Spens: “That secret room eventually had to be sound proofed because Neil Wallis shouted so loudly everyone could hear the secret stories.”
Kuttner is unaware of the soundproofing of the secret room, unaware of the reason it could be soundproofed, unaware of Wallis shouting
Cash Payments
24/01/03 email from Goodman to Coulson cited about “having a heck of a time getting cash payments from Stuart”
Kuttner says he can’t remember Goodman asking him to pay any police officer, but he would have asked him to “clear off”
Another 24/01/03 document cited by David Spens QC about the October 02 ‘Green Book’ and “cryptic credit payment” left for Kuttner
Spens takes Kuttner to the relevant cash docket for the Green Book on 24/01/03 – authorised by cashier stamp four days later.
The subject for this cash docket is ‘Royal Research Project’: Kuttner said previously he had no recollection of this.
Spens claims Kuttner had a conversation with Goodman about the Green Book and it was a ‘secure source’: Kuttner has no recollection of this
Justice Saunders has a question for Kuttner about anonymous sources – would it be done on a form like this? “Yes,” says Kuttner.
Kuttner says that journalists should be “confidential source” on the part of the docket which normally contains a name.
Goodman’s Demotion
David Spens QC moves on to 2005, cross examining Stuart Kuttner, on behalf of his client Clive Goodman.
22/06/05 “4 years after Goodman had been promoted” says Spens. about Goodman on the news desk head count, but still coming to conference
Kuttner doesn’t think that Goodman’s reporting to news desk was a ‘demotion”:
“Some of the most distinguished writers in Fleet St have reported through a news desk without equivocation” says Kuttner
Kuttner agrees that Goodman might have seen this as a demotion: but he was still at the “high level” at editorial conferences.
Kuttner didn’t notice that Goodman had been put down the “pecking order” at editorial conferences.
Page numbers missing for Spens – other counsel search for 01/11/05 email. 15 minute break.
Kuttner does not recollect Alec Hall
Back after the break at #hackingtrial with 01/11/05 application for credit for ‘Alec Hall’ for Clive Goodman.
Kuttner reiterates the name Alec Hall was unfamiliar to him: Spens says 160 cash payments over 4.5 years for Hall – £53k
“Are you really saying the name Hall is not familiar to you?” asks Spens. Kuttner points out NOTW budget ran into “many millions of pounds”
“I have no recollection of having a recollection” says Kuttner of Alec Hall
“I have no recollection of payment to Hall at all” says Kuttner. “These were cash payments”
Kuttner’s meetings with Clive Goodman after his arrest
Spens goes back to Kuttner’s evidence over the arrest of Goodman and showing he “supported him”
“Despite your question about the difficulties of Clive, he was one of the team” says Kuttner. “Quite unused to have any member arrested”
Kuttner agrees Goodman worked for NOTW for 20 years: not sure what Spens means by assertion Goodman was a “company man”
In his previous evidence Kuttner said he picked up Goodman 08/08/06 – but he agrees “it could indeed be the following day” 09/08/06
10/08/06 document adduced by Spens – Kuttner’s note of meeting with Goodman which he said “I think was made contemporaneously”
Kuttner vaguely remembers a second meeting with Goodman after his arrest being “late morning”
The contemporaneous note mentions £100: Kuttner “I think I gave Clive or his wife Jenny £100… I made this note to myself to reimburse”
“A long time has elapsed” says Kuttner of how many visits he made to Goodman after his arrest. He remembers a night journey with Brandman
Kuttner recalls going back three days later to see Goodman: “and sitting with him in the flat”. He’s uncertain of when £100 given
“If Mr Goodman through you says I’m mistaken and it didn’t happen, I’ll accept that. But it’s unlikely” says Kuttner
“I remember seeing the block of flats opposite in the day light” says Kuttner of annotated meeting. The 10/08/06 note is ‘possibly’ next day
Kuttner agrees he was the first person from NOTW to see Goodman after his arrest, and he was the first senior management to see him
Spens says Kuttner’s real reason for picking up Goodman was “to obtain information for NOTW of the state of police investigation”
Kuttner says it was the “first time in his life” someone in a senior role arrested: “We tried to put the arm of the company around them”
Kuttner doesn’t accept that he was trying to find out if other names at NOTW had been named during Goodman’s interview.
Spens turns to Kuttner’s contemporaneous note of talking with Goodman after his arrest in August 2006
Spens goes through Mulcaire introducing Goodman to “serving spook…. dropping off inform… from secret services”
Saunders goes back to manuscript note: says “leftovers from SIS bugging” – MI6
Kuttner note says Goodman talked of “dial in access from secret services”. Note “Told Andy this at the start”: Kuttner marked this line
Kuttner note of Goodman conversation talks about payments to Mulcaire being “agreed” – Kuttner cannot confirm means agreed with Coulson
Kuttner meeting at the Sun
Same day 10/08/06 Kuttner went to a meeting at the Sun newspaper, according to attendance note by Henri Brandman.
“I’m puzzled about the Sun” says Kuttner. Spens goes back to legal note including Coulson. “I’ve no recollection” says Kuttner.
“One of the difficulties is a memory difficult caused by a heart attack and a brain stem stroke… a lot of recollections… have gone”
Spens tries to jog Kuttner’s memory at the meeting at the Sun with himself Coulson and Henri Brandman. Note was made the same day.
“The note must have been made before the meeting or after it” says Spens. The attendance note has no more details of content.
“Do you think the presence of criminal solicitor there had something to do with Goodman’s arrest?” ask Saunders. Kuttner not sure.
The next day there’s a legal note of a 3hour meeting at the Sun with Kuttner, Coulson and three lawyers.
“I have an imprecise memory of lawyer’s meetings after Goodman’s arrest” says Kuttner.
“What purpose did you write this note?” asks Spens. “So I had some kind of record of these events” says Kuttner.
Kuttner agrees that people at the NOTW would have been very interested in what Goodman had said.
Kuttner agrees it is “entirely reasonable” he told Coulson and others about the Goodman debriefing – and Coulson would have known.
Payments to Mulcaire continue
Spens, for Goodman, turns to 25/01/07 in his cross examination of Stuart Kuttner.
Coulson emails Kuttner on 23/01/07 about last payments to Mulcaire: “fulfil the contract but not a penny more”
NI lawyer replies to Kuttner on 25/01/07 – the day before Mulcaire sentenced – “keeping him non hostile till after tomorrow more important”
“The NOTW continued to pay Mulcaire under his contract” says Spens despite the guilty plea. “What did non hostile mean to you?”
Kuttner says “I don’t know what it meant to me if anything at all”; Saunders: “It’s coming out of your budget”
Kuttner agrees that paying Mulcaire might have meant keeping him “sweet… and not talking to other press”
“I do remember, as you can see, I passed this promptly on to Andy Coulson” says Kuttner.
Kuttner says he’s not sure the payments were to stop Mulcaire “going public” about his payments
“NOTW was involved in a uniquely unpleasant situation…. I would contain matters” says Kuttner.
“If I aware of it, I was not conscious of it” says Kuttner of other NOTW journalists being named in the Mulcaire papers.
Kuttner rejects Spens’ suggestion that he was trying to hide his authorisation of Alexander payments – though agrees he did authorise
Kuttner’s opinion of Goodman and Mulcaire
“The NOTW was in a very unhappy state of affairs, that I was very unwilling to extend” says Kuttner of Mulcaire.
“I was so appalled. I thought the relationship with Mulcaire and Goodman should be severed” says Kuttner of 2006/7
Spens adduces 03/02/07 email from Kuttner to NOTW staff, under authority of the new editor Colin Myler
Kuttner says he didn’t draft the letter to NOTW staff, but reviewed it: reiterates that PCC code is part of the terms of employment at NI
Kuttner confirms that abiding by PCC code had been part of the terms of employment at NOTW for “years”.
Kuttner agrees that he thought Goodman should have been severed for phone hacking immediately.
Kuttner said he’d “formed the belief” that Coulson didn’t want to sack Goodman until legal proceedings completed
Kuttner says he formed the view Goodman should have been sacked on guilty plea in Nov 06: but can’t remember if he told Coulson.
The Alexander Project
Back to Alexander Project payments, which began in November 2005. Spens: “Presumably you’ve been kept abreast of what evidence is”
Kuttner accepts the dates of Alexander Project (Mulcaire/Goodman) are common ground: he has no recollection of Coulson authorising them
Kuttner is not sure Coulson must have spoken to him about authorising Alexander Payments.
Kuttner accepts Goodman was attached to the news desk and had no budget to pay Mulcaire on Alexander Payments.
Kuttner talks about Goodman having “historical authority”: Kuttner says he might have taken view a senior person and accepted his signature
“This is possible exception” to needing authorisation of desk heads for Alexander payments says Kuttner.
Spens says Kuttner would have “laughed him straight out of the office” if Goodman had requested unauthorised cash payments for £500 pw
Kuttner says he would have trusted Goodman for the £500 per week cash payments: “perhaps naively I would have accepted that”
Spens points out that Kuttner had said Goodman had made a “bogus claim” around this time. “I thought he was pushing”
“You’d criticised him on 31st of August with various complaints… you wouldn’t have authorised it” says Spens. “I have no recollection”
Spens suggests to Kuttner he told Goodman that Coulson should approve the Alexander project.
“The implication that I was falsifying a name.. absolutely false…. If he said John Brown or Alexander I would have no reason to challenge”
Kuttner asked to read memo from Goodman to him about cash payments “this source in a sensitive profession” requires anonymity
“No I’m not quite sure, because I have no precise recollection. But I think it’s unlikely” says Kuttner of wording over confidential sources
10/01/06 memo to Kuttner from Goodman adduced in Court 12: “attached credit made to source… whose identity is security sensitive”
Kuttner doesn’t believe the ‘wording’ on confidential sources is his. “I’m going to suggest you chose the wording on both these documents”
Kuttner says he wouldn’t use words like “security sensitive”: Spens says Alexander payments were authorised by Coulson.
Kuttner says he has no recollection of a conversation with Coulson.: “You made serious allegations against me”
Kuttner: “Unfortunately Mr Goodman deceived the newspaper, it was an unknown event in my life, to which I was no party”
Stuart Kuttner is Cross-Examined by the Prosecution
Kuttner questioned on his meeting with Clive Goodman
Andrew Edis QC for the Crown cross examines Kuttner – starting on ‘procedure”
Edis turns back to the contemporaneous record of Goodman conversation: and why he emphasises “Told Andy about this from start”
Kuttner explains he highlighted this section because it suggested Coulson was “in the know” about Mulcaire/Goodman Alexander project
“It was a serious allegation against a senior member of our team” says Kuttner. He agrees if there was ‘validity’ to SIS allegation “crime”
“Encouraging that person to commit a crime is a crime” says Edis. Kuttner remembers Shayler and him talking to the papers.
Kuttner can’t remember what happened to Shayler. Says he can go back further. “All the way to the Profumo scandal” says Edis.
Edis. “In your enormously long career you would have come across stories of members of the security services leaking, and being prosectued”
Edis says this must have been “alarming information”: Kuttner “I was no analysing the consequences of what he was saying”
Kuttner accepts that a lot of what Goodman said to him after his arrest “turned out to be true”
“Who else was in on the payments… bullied… pressurised” also highlighted in Kuttner’s contemporaneous notes.
Kuttner asked why he highlighted this too with vertical lines. “I thought it was important” he says.
A vertical line by Kuttner on his contemporaneous note highlights “police register Glenn calling Nos” at 02 and Vodaphone
“News of the World chain link” is highlighted in Kuttner document – because calls lead back to NI.
Kuttner asterisked ‘targetting’ and concerns from police another NOTW journalist was at hacking too: “That’s Goodman’s version of events”
Kuttner agrees that this other NOTW journalist named to Goodman and police was in a “senior position”: Edis: “Perhaps committing crimes?”
Kuttner agrees but says “Clive Goodman tended to embellish” Edis: “He wasn’t embellishing about his arrest” “No,” says Goodman
Another asterisk by Kuttner highlights Goodman’s financial concerns post arrest about “legal fees”. Sal Con- Salary will Continue.
“He’d just told you he’d committed a crime” says Edis of Kuttner’s decision to continue with his salary. K: “You let the process proceed”
Edis points out that what Goodman had told him was ground for instant dismissal. “These are my short notes” says Kuttner
Edis asks if Kuttner used notebooks: he says yes. He shows Kuttner as spiral notebook. Kuttner confirms it is his.
“As far as I know I left all my notebooks in NI archives” says Kuttner.
“Yes because that’s what newspapermen do” says Edis of archiving notebooks. “This one certainly does” says Kuttner
Edis explains the note of Kuttner’s talk with Goodman post arrest comes from Kuttner’s 2006 notebook. Break till 2pm
Kuttner’s Notes of Conversation with Goodman Just After his Arrest http://wp.me/p1YHIt-F4
Stuart Kuttner Defence Witness – Lord Carey
Lord Carey is questioned on his knowledge of Stuart Kuttner
Brief interruption of Kuttner’s cross exam by Edis: Kuttner has a character witness former Archbishop (now Lord) George Carey #hackingtrial
Lord Carey swears by almighty God that the evidence he will give “will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth”
Lord Carey was Archbishop of Canterbury from 1991 to 2002: he knows the general nature of allegations against Kuttner.
Carey says he came up with the idea of a book “Jesus 2000” and approached Rupert Murdoch “I want to get the story out”
Carey says two people came to see him at Lambeth Palace was Stuart Kuttner: the answer came back from Murdoch that NOTW would run booklet
Carey continued writing these articles with Kuttner beyond his retirement. They met often with Colin Myler: became friends.
Carey says he would submit these articles with his son. Kuttner was a “very penetrating journalist”
The articles Carey wrote were on moral matter, education, social issues like paedophilia. Kuttner was a “great encourager”
“No payment would be made” for this 2000 booklet: “It was my gift… and his gift…” says Carey of Murdoch’s offer.
Carey began to write columns for NOTW because “Stuart and I got on very well together”
“I wouldn’t normally write for NOTW” says Carey but because of Kuttner “he’s a very good man”.
Paper took an interest “in very poor people, in very poor conditions” says Carey of NOTW and a streets campaign.
Carey says Kuttner was concerned with young journalists: “a man of deep integrity, loyal to his paper”
“He is a man who’s Jewish ethic went through his life” says Carey: “A man I would trust. My wife and I became very close to him”
Stuart Kuttner’s Cross-Examined by the Prosecution continues
Kuttner questioned further on his meeting with Clive Goodman
Andrew Edis QC continues with his cross examination of Stuart Kuttner: he’s back to the note of the Goodman conversation.
“Your objective was to find out what the police were up to” says Edis of that conversation post arrest. Kuttner still rejects this.
“I went to see him as a representative of the newspaper… to discover what was going on” says Kuttner. “Nothing wrong with finding out”
“There seems to be an implication this was to protect the newspaper,” says Kuttner: “Not the central reason for my visit”
As far as Kuttner knows, Goodman wasn’t paid out of his budget when he came out of prison – paid 12 months notice.
Kuttner says he’s “not au fait with that aspect of his departure” about dismissal of Goodman for gross misconduct.
Kuttner cannot recall anyone dismissed for gross or criminal misconduct.
Kuttner doesn’t think the two further pay out to Goodman in 2007 came out of his budget. He wasn’t involved in that decision.
Kuttner’s trust of journalists and payments
Edis addresses the issue of Kuttner’s trust of other journalists. Kuttner agrees he expected a high degree of trust.
“It must be remembered in journalism… that reporters are trusted to produce for publication material that may be inflammatory, C of C”
Kuttner accepts he made payments “absolutely on trust” without making inquiries where the money went to or what it was used for.
“I’m not a naturally suspicious person. I have no reason to believe my colleagues are duping or deceiving the paper” says Goodman
Edis asks how Kuttner could deliver “value for money” if he didn’t know what contributors were being paid, and what for.
Edis asks how Kuttner would check value for money for Mulcaire payments: Kuttner says if they provided “useful material… no concerns”
“So you weren’t doing your job at all” says Edis. Kuttner: “I don’t accept your words but they are your words.”
Edis cites prepared statement from Rebekah Brooks dated 17/07/11: managing editors responsible for “approval, monitoring, auditing payments
These payments Brooks talks about in her police statement are about payments to private investigators.
Kuttner says the “operational management responsibility” of managing editors is “possibly too wide a phrase” in Brooks’ statement
“I don’t object to it, I think it is imprecise and of rather a wide nature” says Kuttner of Brooks’ note. He says it overstates his role.
Edis asks if Brooks’ statement “understates the role of the editor”. Kuttner says he had the responsibility for editorial budget.
“The company held the view editor had overall responsibility” says Kuttner. He reported to the editor, but also to managing directors & CEO
Kuttner agrees that he was responsible for approval of payments to PIs, but not sure about “monitoring and auditing”: “not terms I’d apply”
Kuttner says monitoring would be on “level” of spending – not concerned with who the payment was to, and what for.
Kuttner doesn’t know what Edis means by “auditing” – but accepts that he would check NOTW was “within my knowledge… properly spent”
Kuttner says NOTW generally did not use invoices. Instead there was a “self billing process” without waiting for invoices.
Glen Mulcaire
“What services did Glenn Mulcaire provide for NOTW?” asks Edis. “It now emerges… much to my distress… that provided phone interception”
Edis asks what Kuttner “knew at the time” of Mulcaire’s services.
“I was told he was… providing private investigator services: surveiilance, tracking down people” says Kuttner of Mulcaire.
Edis asks “what did you actually end up with” of Mulcaire’s services. “I had no reason to think” wasn’t anything other than normal PI work
“I wouldn’t be presented with the product of his work” says Kuttner. He cannot remember any paperwork spelling it out.
Edis says of Kuttner’s payment to Mulcaire”you made one inquiry when he started…. & never made any other inquiries in the next five years”
Edis says “trust” is not good enough when it comes to money. “It was your job to check” he tells Kuttner. Kuttner says trust is the core
Kuttner accepts a leak on a “significant one fact story” is a “serious matter”
Kuttner describes a leak he discovered was journalist working for the Times or Sunday Time who came once a week and ferreted around
Kuttner says it “wasn’t fine” that this journalist sold NOTW stories to rival newspapers.
“You can raise your eyebrows and you’re quite entitled” says Kuttner of Edis’ sceptical look. “Very unlikely staff team would betray paper”
Kuttner explains the importance of secret room for a one fact secret story: “take it forward to a production stage off the floor”
Edis asks if why Kuttner was getting another NOTW journos billing; “because there was mistrust” says Kuttner. Concerns of leak of Calum Best
Kuttner concedes that getting a journalists phone billing shows a degree of “mistrust” among NOTW journalists.
Paying Police Officers
Kuttner says he always thought paying police was wrong, but didn’t necessarily know it was a crime.
Kuttner says that “hypothetically” he would consider paying a police officer if they had proof of corruption of chief commissioner
“At the very highest level… consideration must be given to it” says Kuttner of paying police officers: “It might be justifiable”
Edis says that by 2003 Kuttner was “well aware” that paying police was a crime. Kuttner says he can’t remember. Edis gets new bundle.
“I think the man I’m thinking of now is Nigel…. Neville Thurlbeck” Kuttner says he went to Milton Keynes Court.
Kuttner remembers there “was a previous occasion a journalist had been tried and acquitted… if I didn’t deal with that earlier I apologise
“You remember going to Milton Keynes Court, and you remember he was acquitted” says Edis. “He was charged with making payments to police”
“That does come as a bit of new information to me” says Kuttner of Thurlbeck’s charge of corrupt payments to police in 2000.
Summer 2000 Thurlbeck acquitted. Brooks emails Kuttner asking for a pay rise for Thurlbeck.
Kuttner doesn’t remember trying to cut Thurlbeck’s pay rise on acquittal, but does remember him
14/09/00 Kuttner sends an email to various NOTW staff including NGN MD Clive Milner: Milner replies “my reaction is to decline”
Milner says Thurlbeck’s rise is “inappropriate” in 2000. “He’s not quite as relaxed about your budget as you said he was” says Edis.
Kuttner talks of a “climate of concern” over staff costs at a senior management level: “different to spending money on a story”
“I think he was entirely relaxed on the day to day budget, but not about a salary for staff” says Kuttner.
Edis asks if Milner would be concerned about hiring someone on £100k. “If an outsider” says Kuttner: “Viewed very differently”
Kuttner accepts that “justification” was needed. If he had mentioned Nine Consultancy, and could save costs, it would be accepted.
“Why didn’t you ask him?” says Edis of asking Milner about Nine Consultancy: “It didn’t occur to me to do so..” says Kuttner.
Saunders points out that both Brooks and Pannuccio had said in previous evidence Mulcaire’s contract should have gone up to NGN MD.
“Did the editor tell you not to approach Mr Milner?” asks Edis. “Absolutely not,” says Kuttner.
Kuttner’s medical condition
Kuttner “I suggest getting in touch with my doctor, I don’t know if my lapses are through the passage of time or severe brain stem stroke”
Kuttner says he has seen a neuro psychologist and consultant neurologists: they have both provided reports.
Edis says 22/06/13 the consultant neurologist has provided a report. Edis asks Kuttner has decided not to place these documents before jury
15 minute break
Private Investigators
Edis moves onto Kuttner’s own defence file for the rest of the afternoon: he has three documents he wants to put in this bundle.
Edis inserts a big spreadsheet into Kuttner’s defence bundle.
A 05/07/00 NOTW memorandum is also inserted by the prosecution into the defence bundle
Edis turns to a list Kuttner created in Jan July 1998-9 of private investigators
Kuttner thinks this is “Pre Mulcaire” list of Private Investigator sent to Miskiw 06/10/99 – telling journalists to do more work themselves
Edis asks Kuttner if he can remember a conversation with Miskiw about using Mulcaire to save money
“I believe someone came to me… and said he could save money by using one inquiry agent” says Kuttner. Edis: “Stop using these people?”
Kuttner says the “business case” for Mulcaire was trying to save money on Private Investigators.
Edis asks if the plan in 2001 to stop using other PIs: “I accepted in my mind I accepted there would be occasions” other used says Kuttner
Kuttner confirms NOTW kept on using Whittamore’s JJ services two years late: Mr Stafford he can’t remember.
Kuttner says Christine Hart was a freelance journalist used by Greg Miskiw “who tended to be rather expensive”
“The most expensive item is Legal resources and intelligence” says Edis of PI costs to NOTW in 1999
Edis cites a 01/08/06 contributor payment request to Derek Webb: “his specialism was surveillance”. Mark Newbie Robinson and James Stafford
Kuttner says “it’s apparent the paper was still using” J Stafford 7 years after he planned reduction of private investigators at NOTW.
Kuttner confirms that Derek Webb was used over a number of years, and he was paid a substantial number of payments from NOTW.
Jury shown Derek Webb payments from 2003-2011: a total of £249.239
Edis points out that Kuttner approved most these payments to Webb until 2009
“How did that happen if you’d done this deal to put over the work to Euro Research and 9 Consultancy” asks Edis of costs of Webb from 2003
“My job was to oversee the editorial budgets” says Kuttner: “to do my best to contain department spending within their annual budgets”
“You had actively approved the commitment in 2001…. amounting to over £100k of Mulcaire’s company, to save money,” says Edis
Edis says wouldn’t he point out that they’d done a deal with 9 Consultancy. “A long time ago… but not an isolated event” says Edis.
“I can’t recall, sir” says Kuttner to Edis of reducing the cost of private investigators at NI.
Edis then turns to the NOTW costs to Private Investigator Paul Gadd: from November 2004. Kuttner cannot recall him.
Kuttner looks at the Gadd payments that from 2004 to 2010: “perhaps some of these payments were signed off by the news desk”
Kuttner says he might not have seen these one system is computerised. But SKUT initials occur a lot as well as news desk editors
Edis reiterates a lot of money was “paid off to Gadd”. “It doesn’t appear your approval of Mulcaire’s contract saved money”
Edis suggests Mulcaire was being recruited to provide an “additional service”: Kuttner says “if he was it was absolutely without my approval
“If this had been a money saving device, you’d be monitoring savings on private investigators” says Edis.
Kuttner says these allegations he knew about phone hacking is “was without foundation”
Kuttner: “I’ve spent a lifetime in journalist… intercepting voicemails is a technique that has never ever featured in my work or my mind”
Saunders asks about how “intrusive” the surveillance NOTW employed was.
Kuttner talks of two hypothetical people having an affair: “Webb and possibly Mulcaire…. would watch the house”
“The process to secure photographs for evidence should be considered separately whether fit for publication” says Kuttner.
Kuttner says they might use a lip reader for a major public event – such as the Queen, but not the Goodman claim of Harry at Wedding.
Kuttner says he’s “not familiar with, or ever advocate” binology: even though he authorised an invoice with that topic.
Documents discussed in today’s #hackingtrial – Kuttner’s Notes of Conversation with Goodman Just After his Arrest http://wp.me/p1YHIt-F4

Note: All the defendants deny all the charges. The trial continues.

Related Articles
Kuttner Notes of Conversation with Goodman Just After his Arrest
Some of the Mysteries of Phone Hacking – Unlocked
Mulcaire Sanctioned by Spooks – Malign Influence of NI Lawyer on Goodmans Legal Team
Texts to Rebekah Brooks from Tony Blair on the Eve of her Arrest
Brooks – Coulson email exchange on Goodman Mulcaire guilty pleas: It is all going so well

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