Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 17 Dec

Tuesday 17 December 2013

The Prosecution Case Continues
Back at the Hacking Trial
Prosecution Evidence on Stuart Kuttner
Stuart Kuttner Police Interviews under caution
First Stuart Kuttner Police Interview on 2 August 2011
Second Stuart Kuttner Police Interview
Third Stuart Kuttner Police Interview

The Prosecution Case Continues
Back at the Hacking Trial
Back at the #hackingtrial. Jury are told all day will be spent reading out Stuart Kuttner‘s interview “reasonably hard going” says Saunders
Prosecution Evidence on Stuart Kuttner
Stuart Kuttner Police Interviews under caution
Bryant Heron points out that Stuart Kuttner had several taped interviews, and this is the agreed transcript
First Stuart Kuttner Police Interview on 2 August 2011
First interview under caution 02/08/11 – two detectives present with Kuttner and legal representatives. Police witness reads police parts
Bryant Heron reads the part of Stuart Kuttner. Kuttner’s legal representative names himself
Just to explain the scenario: Weeting Detective is reading the police parts during the re-reading of the interview. Currently giving caution
DC explains Operation Weeting began when the three emails were handed to Met in Jan 2011. Burton, Kuttner’s solicitor, explains his stroke
Kuttner’s legal rep explains recent hospital attendance in California due to a heart attack, and consequent difficulties reading
Kuttner’s legal representative explains Kuttner has memory problems since brain stem stroke in 2010.
Kuttner explains during interview “I will do my best to answer your questions…. If I can’t remember I will say so”
Kuttner says of the three Mulcaire emails circa 2006 “I have no information on them”
Kuttner “Without sight of them I am not at all familiar….” Kuttner (in reread interview) explains his history at NOTW
Kuttner took over managing editor role in late 80s: “on Fleet Street…. each managing editor carves out his or her role”
“I also liaised with the police during the Wapping troubles,” Kuttner explains in a rereading of his interview, organising transport
Kuttner on his NOTW role: “For quite a long time I’d do a lot of interviews…. and defend the paper’s coverage in other media.”
“There were days I feel I was appointed in the 1880’s,” says Kuttner of police slip up in dates in his transcribed interview
Kuttner explains he was based in Wapping until he left in 2009, with his own office, and a PA nearby
Kuttner explains that there were no notes take at editorial conferences. Editor would talk about scoops. Dept heads would pitch stories
Kuttner also trained journalists to the PCC Editors Code of Practice “at News International… all staff required to adhere to it”
Kuttner is asked to recall his work email addresses and/or aliases while he was at News International (in rereading of interview transcript)
Kuttner says he was one of the last people at NI to get his own email address circa 1999/2000.
Kuttner then gives two home email addresses to detectives interviewing him in August 2011 at #hackingtrial read through
Kuttner says he might have returned company laptop, but can’t remember and never used it
Kuttner then goes through his PAs who had the password to his business account, so they could check his emails.
Kuttner says he couldn’t access his work email until he got his Blackberry “in the last few years”. They’ve brought it in to police station
Kuttner remembers his two work phone numbers. He took them with him when he left News International.
Both mobiles in Kuttner’s possession in 2011 were paid for by News International, even though he’d left 2 years before.
Kuttner explains his role during the run up to 2005 Elections: he went with political editor to 10 Downing St to interview Blair and Brown
Kuttner says he came up with the idea of a reward for an occasion like Soham, and would go there and talk to the police about announcement
Kuttner says “campaign for Sara’s law I was most intensely involved in… to make Britain safer for children. Met a lot of opposition”
Kuttner says a campaign like Sarah’s Law (CORRECTION) required a lot of continuity
Kuttner: “The word reporter is inscribed in my heart”: rereading of his 2011 interview at #hackingtrial
Kuttner now explains the rule over NOTW expense – had to be filed within 4 weeks to desk editors, and if approved handed to Kuttner’s office
“If it looked realistic I’d accept it, and pass through the accounts department,” Kuttner on NOTW expenses
Kuttner confirms that editor had authority over expenses, but disputes rarely went that far.
“My memory of details is impaired,” Kuttner tells Detectives during 2011 interview about contributor payment details
Kuttner would check up a marked copy of the newspaper with the different quantum billings for sports, news, picture etc
Kuttner says “there was a chap responsible for setting pay scales,” towards the end of his time. “That chap was Neil Wallis”
“The common sense approach was through cheque or BACS,” Kuttner says of his preferred form of payments.
Kuttner explains that cash payments had protocols: names, addresses and details
“Ha. That’s a very good question, who’s job was it to check the accuracy,” said Kuttner on payments: mainly responsibility of journalists
Detective interviewing Kuttner: “Who’s the responsibility of something procured by illegal mean?” Kuttner says the person acquiring it
Kuttner explains that in contentious stories such as “Mary X is sleeping with the following men” there would be a “pre-publication inquest.”
Kuttner cites NOTW corrupt cricket story: “lots of information would have been sifted before publication….”
Kuttner says the pre-publication inquest wasn’t his responsibility.
Kuttner tells police he’s “utterly appalled” by phone hacking “and the allegations against me personally. I spent 25 years setting standards
“I’ve never knowingly bribed a policeman, which is part of your allegation, nor been knowingly involved in phone hacking.” Kuttner
10 minute break
Back in #hackingtrial with DC Backers reading the part of DC Fletcher interviewing Kuttner back in August 2011.
Saunders tries to cut out repeat cautions from re-read evidence.
Kuttner explains his resignation in 2009 was when editor (Colin Myler) asked him to take a part time role
“I received a very warm and personal letter from Rupert Murdoch,” says Kuttner: “And then I left”
Kuttner kept in contact with Sara Payne over Sarah’s Law after his retirement
There was continuing relationship with NOTW says Kuttner “Until the devastating closure of News of the World.”
“I was not there, but the relationship was maintained,” says Kuttner of the NOTW after departure in 2009, that’s why he kept two phones
Kuttner was also chairman and trustee of a NI pension fund. He stood down from that when NOTW closed and medical issues in summer 2010
DC Fletcher asked Kuttner about Brooks: “the direct work relationship was a long time ago…”
“She was a very able newspaperwoman.” says Kuttner of Rebekah Brooks.
“I can’t recollect,” says Kuttner of Brooks’ editorship of NOTW: “Very difficult to tell…. what… ten years ago.”
“In terms of working with Rebekah, I liked her….” says Kuttner of Brooks: “and she could not be faulted in terms of her commitment”
Kuttner talks about Brooks and the ‘Beast of Bodmin’ story: “her intuition…. saved the paper. She’s intuitively strong.”
“One of the reasons it sticks in my mind (the Beast of Bodmin inquisition) was that it was very unusual,” Kuttner says
Kuttner says he went to Brooks’ first wedding and knew Ross Kemp. They’d chat – for example on her frustration at not being editor of Sun
Kuttner saw a lot of Brooks on the Sarah’s Law campaign. DC Fletcher asks about his connections with the deputy editor.
“I’m not in that chain of command,” Kuttner says of editor, deputy, desk heads: “I don’t fit into anything.”
Kuttner cannot recall Brooks’ email address. He would speak to her on the phone about a staff matter “It could be anything…”
Matters of non attendance of staff might be brought to Kuttner’s attention, and he would inform Brooks.
“The only contact I’ve had with Rebekah… was a few days ago, with the news Sara Payne’s phone was hacked,” says Kuttner
“I’m preparing a draft statement… it’s all in hand,” said Brooks to Kuttner (according to interview) about the hacking of Sara Payne
Kuttner says he probably last had email contact with Brooks around his farewell dinner in 2010
“There was a lot of emailing, there’s a lot of it going on… sometimes you think what has this got to do with me….” Kuttner of NI comms
“There’s a tradition in newspapers where you cascade down,” says Kuttner of command structure at NOTW when editor or deputy away
Kuttner says Brooks “Rebekah was rightfully concerned with whatever was going on, but I don’t think I’d call her ‘hands on’.”
Kuttner has no knowledge of Brooks knowledge of phone hacking. Denies conspiring with her over phone hacking
Kuttner denies there was a culture of “get the story at any cost” at NOTW
Another Weeting Detective asks whether managing editor was an ‘executive position’: Kuttner sounds unsure; says ‘senior position’
“At budgeting time I would have discussed the budget with her,” says Kuttner but he can’t remember any specific detail “It was years ago”
“Every editor is different, every editor is individual:” Kuttner says of Brooks’ tenure at NOTW but “cannot say with certaintly” any detail
“It’s possible I…. listed some contracts… about the value,” says Kuttner of his discussions with Brooks.
“I am frustrated, and frustrated at being here at the centre of these unfounded accusations.” Kuttner
“I liked Andy. Competive, astute,” says Kuttner on Coulson.
“He was significantly involved in early days…. there at the beginning of Sara’s Law campaign. He had enthusiasm…” Kuttner on Coulson
“He was better at lunching with people than some people. He was closer to people. My wife went to theatre with his wife” Kuttner on Coulson
“Crikey. A long time ago.” Kuttner last spoke to Coulson “when he was at the Conservative Party and was getting a lot of negative coverage”
Kuttner says he offered to help Coulson. Kuttner thinks the number is still stored on one phone as ‘AC’ and another as “Coulson’
On Coulson’s resignation; “Goodman’s conduct happened on his watch…. Les Hinton…. accepted it with reluctance,” says Kuttner
“Are you sure this is absolutely necessary?” Kuttner asked of Coulson. They discussed how “appalling” the phone hacking was
Kuttner says the arrest of Goodman “was the most traumatic day of my life.” And says his arrest is “traumatic”
“I think he was a popular editor, and people were disappointed he decided to go,” says Kuttner of Coulson
Kuttner explains his role with Neil Wallis: “much more involved in content of paper… then very much involved in consultancy operation”
Wallis was a “meetings and projects person” says Kuttner. “Myler wanted a new deputy, and Wallis became executive… 2008ish”
Kuttner’s contact with Wallis would “be about money” and the “changes in working practices” suggested by management consultants
Kuttner says Wallis came when Coulson became editor. “I knew of him and he knew of me…. only social encounters, Holocaust education trust”
Kuttner cannot remember much about Goodman. First a freelance, and then on staff. Given Royal Reporter or editor, maybe News editor.
“Perhaps I had more to do with Clive than other journalists… I had some very good Royal contacts,” says Kuttner of Goodman
“I picked him up from the police station and took him home,” says Kuttner of Goodman’s arrest in the summer of 2006
“He popped into my office from time to time, with cash or dockets,” says former NOTW Managing Ed Kuttner of Clive Goodman
“I wasn’t his line manager, but I noticed he wouldn’t stir himself.” Brooks wanted Goodman to come to Paris but he wouldn’t
Kuttner went with Wallis (for the Sun) and Brooks on a 17 hour journey to Paris chasing up a story about Duchess of York and Johnnie Bryant
Kuttner on Goodman says “he on the whole wouldn’t stir himself” so Kuttner had to go to Paris instead
Kuttner says Goodman’s “amounts were out of kilter” from his stories: “About quantum, rather than anything else.”
Kuttner was not aware of any contracts with outside investigators set up by Goodman
“I don’t think so, no” Kuttner says on the authority for contracts: “It’s possible I might have overseen the contracts”
“I didn’t know… I didn’t know…. I didn’t know till Goodman’s arrest it was possible to interrogate phone messages on phones” Kuttner
Kuttner confirms he did phone Goodman on a “hot story” about Prince and Princess of Wales were going to separate with an intermediary
“It was a hot, hot story… and Friday night was the ideal time,” says Kuttner of Princess Diana story.
“Did I know (Goodman) was working with him (Mulcaire)…. I might have known before, but I was first aware when he was arrested.” Kuttner
Kuttner remembers the Alexander cash payments because they “had to dig them out” when Goodman was arrested in 2006
Clive Goodman was inventing people,” says Kuttner of Goodman’s payments to Mulcaire through false name. “We trusted the staff,” he says
“If you find out, as I found out, that you’re deceived by Goodman, you’re very angry.” says Kuttner:
“He can’t be the final signatory, absolutely not,” says Kuttner of Goodman. “But he’s not the best example…. he held a high position.”
“Other people would have to go through news editor or feature editor before they reached the managing editors office,” Kuttner on payments
Kuttner “can’t say for certainty” about Mulcaire Goodman contract “but I can’t recall any knowledge of it.”
To accusation he should have known about Mulcaire: “I think the answer to that is no…. you trust senior people.”
Kuttner says to questions of involvement in phone hacking, tasking, or intercepting royal household; “Absolutely not”
Kuttner cannot recall any involvement in Goodman’s dismissal either pre-trial or during conviction.
Kuttner said previously he’d been on a dismissal’s appeal panel, but not to do with Clive Goodman.
“I think he claimed that everyone from the editor down knew of phone hacking” says Kuttner of Goodman’s dismissal claims.
“Completely and utterly false claim,’ says Kuttner of Goodman’s allegations of widespread phone hacking at NOTW in 2007
“I can’t recall any involvement” in Goodman’s dismissal appeal, or subsequent investigations by News International to investigate in 2007
Kuttner says; “I have some good Royal Contacts but I will never disclose them….” Laughts: the source of Diana divorce was not Royal Source
Kuttner was concerned at the volume of Goodman’s cash payments: “my impression was his were pretty regular”
“The show business guy also had a lot of contacts,” different areas required more cash payments than others says Kuttner in police interview
Kuttner says he would have no further idea about the identities of source other than the names on the dockets.
Kuttner cannot understand why Goodman created a new identity for Mulcaire, if paid elsewhere.
Kuttner recalls another contract named at Parliamentary Committee in 2008/9 but in another name suggested by “NOTW person”
“The informants name was not his true name,” recalls Kuttner of one instance. “There’s not a policy,” of pseudonymity, “but it would go on”
Kuttner says the greatest bulk of payments have their names and addresses logged – false names an exception
“I was also shaken by the deception of myself, the editor, and the News of the World,” says Kuttner of Goodman’s Alexander payments
Second Stuart Kuttner Police Interview
Two weeks later: another Kuttner interview: police role read by DC Backers. Stuart Kuttner played by Mark Bryant Heron
In this later interview Stuart is quizzed about his Blackberry handset and whether other people used it. He used persona and NI email addys
Kuttner agrees he was NI’s “the head man” when it came to the payments that would end up in the accountants system in Peterborough
Kuttner says he “didn’t decide to be old fashioned” but liked things on paper such a payment requests over £1000k
Back after this wretched @twitter lockout. Always happens when there’s more to tweet! Saved drafts now reposted
Back with #hackingtrial and Kuttner’s police interviews: with DC Backers reading role of detectives and Bryant Heron reading part of Kuttner
Kuttner says payments above £50k were very rare, but would go even further up the tree.
Kuttner says “that once we get into thousands rather hundreds” on payments “the editor would get involved”
Kuttner said it would involve the editor and the department head if the “buy” was big enough.
“It could be £15k, it could be £5k, it could be £2k” provoking a discussion with editor over a picture buy, says Kuttner in police interview
“So who makes the decision?” Kuttner “Let me help you. There might be some misconception” Kuttner compares himself with a church manager
“They would go ahead, and you’d have to accept that?” asks detective. “Absolutely,” replies Kuttner of power of editors over managing editor
Sun publisher posts £75m pre-tax loss http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/dec/17/sun-publisher-loss-news-group-newspapers
Kuttner is asked about his bonus, and what it might be in relation to: “I don’t know,” says Kuttner: “I don’t want to speculated….”
“I do recall it was…. a short letter. This is your bonus.” That’s all Kuttner can recall in police interview about bonuses at NOTW
Sometimes, rarely, Kuttner would recommend someone else for a bonus. But usually it was the editor’s remit.
Kuttner might recommend a bonus because of outstanding story or picture scoop.
Kuttner explains the expenses system, sometimes claims, sometimes on an ‘advance docket’. He didn’t like late claims
Kuttner says he would “have knowledge” of cash payments to contributors. Meetings were not minuted or recorded in regard to finances
Kuttner says his bonuses “weren’t city bonuses, unfortunately”: around £10k to £15k.
Kuttner is asked by a police detective about medical problems relating to his memory, ever since his heart attack and brain stem stroke
Kuttner: “I’m answering your questions as best I can… I cannot invent….” Detective: “No, I’m not asking you to speculate”
“Is the reason you don’t know the passage or time or your medical condition?” asks Detective of Kuttner during interview: “As my doctors.”
“It’s not even there. I can’t retrieve it,” says Kuttner pointing to his head. Has to be explained police interview has no CCTV only voice
Justice Saunders notes of Kuttner interview there is a “long section on why he doesn’t know why he doesn’t know”
Kuttner is asked about guidance for his particular role: “if so, I’m not aware of it…. If there was a manual, I wasn’t aware of it”
Kuttner says he can’t recall standard operating procedures or risk assessments of any of NOTW journalists.
DC Fletcher led this second Kuttner interview in August 2011, now covering fallout from Goodman’s dismissal
Police interviewer now moves onto Glenn Mulcaire: “I really don’t know very much about him… he had a contract over several years”
“I don’t really know much about that,” Kuttner on Mulcaire’s role as a ‘inquiry agent’ who was a ‘regular freelance’
Kuttner can’t recall how long Mulcaire worked for NOTW
Kuttner can remember Mulcaire was paid around £100k plus a year for his services as this was more economically effective
Kuttner remembers it being more “cost effective” to put Mulcaire on contract, but can’t remember who approved that.
Kuttner remembers Mulcaire worked with Miskiw, and then the news that emerged that he worked with Goodman
Kuttner agrees £100k was a lot of money, but can’t say it was a lot of money in regard to the services he was providing, what he didn’t know
Kuttner doesn’t know who put the new contract in place: “possibly by me, I don’t know.”
“In the wake of the Goodman affair, I discovered he’d been paid as Nine Consultants Ltd,” says Kuttner of Mulcaire. Also aware of Alexander
Kuttner doesn’t know if Mulcaire’s contract was exclusive, or whether he had any other contract with another member of News International
“If such had come to light….they would have been challenged” says Kuttner of possibility of Mulcaire billing through another NI paper
Kuttner on exclusivity explains that individual writer could offer a story not accepted by NOTW “to another non rival newspaper”
“Pretty chunky sum of money for anybody,” says Kuttner of Mulcaire’s annual £100k payments
“I’m familiar with the name Mulcaire after all that’s ensued,’ says Kuttner in 2011 interview, now being read out in #hackingtrial
“I think I was informed,” says Kuttner of Mulcaire’s contract. As for anyone else other than Miskiw and Goodman knowing: “I’m not aware.”
“I back in this area of avoiding speculation,” speaking of Mulcaire’s cash payments coming through his office
“I don’t believe so…. ” says Kuttner of speaking to Mulcaire: “I don’t recollect doing so. But if I did, I did,”
Kuttner says he might have spoken with Mulcaire – “this is pure speculation” but “if he says he did I wouldn’t deny it.”
“To the best of knowledge, no.” Kuttner says of the attending social functions with Mulcaire
Kuttner is asked how Mulcaire information was validated? Kuttner uses examples of photos or sworn affidavits.
“The source of the story might be the very personal at the heart of the story,” says Kuttner of how NOTW’s stories
When asked whether an editor would want ‘hard evidence” Kuttner says “it’s not as easy as that” but still agrees need for ‘hard proof’
“I’m afraid…. Clive Goodman deceived the newspaper,” says Stuart Kuttner about the payments to Mulcaire for hacking Royal aide phones
“Not that I can recollect,” says Kuttner of tasking Mulcaire, or becoming involved with any story involving him him
Ten minute break
Third Stuart Kuttner Police Interview
Back with #hackingtrial and the reading out of Stuart Kuttner‘s third interview, he played by prosecutor, Weeting Detective playing another
Saunders to Jury: “Bad news is we’ve got a long way to go. Good news is we can start on page seven”
Kuttner is asked if ‘Paul Williams’ means anything to him. Kuttner says “yes” and remembers DCMS inquiry mentioning it meant Mulcaire
Kuttner cannot remember another Mulcaire pseudonyms “Jane Street, John Jenkins, Matey” – “I handle a lot of documents”
Kuttner asked what his response to a “Matey” invoice: “Goodman being a very senior chap…. I might just have signed it off.”
Kuttner asked (in 2011 interview) again about ‘Alexander’ payments: “he does have a recollection… and now knows it was Mulcaire”
“It all comes back to the person producing the docket. If it was someone who’d been…. a news editor… I would have approved it” Kuttner
Kuttner cannot recall being involved in the legal dispute with Goodman/Mulcaire and NI – Cloke and Crone would have dealt with that.
Kuttner says he remembers “firming up protocols in terms of cash payments” after Goodman/Mulcaire arrests and convictions
Renewed contracts were sent to ‘inquiry agents’ who worked for NOTW after Goodman/Mulcaire conviction in 2006
Kuttner is asked about hacking of Max Clifford and Gordon Taylor: he can’t help on that because he wasn’t involved
Kuttner explains his long term knowledge of Miskiw from Evening News. They both arrived at NOTW around about the same time.
Kuttner says Miskiw’s move to Manchester “might have been for domestic reasons”. Investigations Unit set up a while before
Investigations Unit covering drug smuggling, murder suspects, could last month tying up journalists and reporters for a long time
Kuttner can’t remember if there was a new contract for Miskiw’s role as head of Investigations Unit – a small number in a small room, 2-4
Kuttner’s day to day contact was the same as most people – not always day to day, probably spoke most about money
Kuttner thinks Miskiw reported direct to the editor when running the investigations unit for NOTW
“We trusted our staff,” says Kuttner of the controls historically kept on NOTW journalists.
Kuttner on Miskiw: “sometimes him and his team took a long time producing material…. he became very intense about his material”
Kuttner on Miskiw: “He was passionate…. and this kind of problem can become a problem.”
“Competition in a newspaper office, perish the thought!” Kuttner laughs in police interview in response to questions about culture of NOTW
“I’m not saying there were no issues. I’m saying I can’t recall any issues”: Kuttner on Miskiw’s request for payments.
“All these positions are…. empowering positions,” Kuttner on new editors.
Kuttner on Neville Thurlbeck: “he was involved in most the major stories…. one or two he was involved in, I got involved in.”
Kuttner recalls the Mark Oaten story, and that Kuttner should add weight to Thurlbeck’s allegation that Oaten led a double life
Kuttner recalls Thurlbeck’s time as chief reporter: he would occasionally seek advice. He went Oaten’s house on cold winter’s morning
Kuttner remembers the ‘For Neville’ document emerging in parliament and assumed connection between Thurlbeck and Mulcaire then
Kuttner said he never socially mixed with NOTW except at Christmas parties etc.
Kuttner says that Miskiw did attend news conferences at NOTW, both as news editor and head of investigations unit.
Kuttner spoke to a former NOTW journalist who cannot be named for legal reasons when staying down in Mevagissey in Cornwall
Kuttner is now asked about James Weatherup – senior reporter and news editor. “I had a respect for him as a senior journalist”
“I sometimes knew what he was doing because some of his enterprises were quite costly,” says Kuttner on Weatherup, and cites Spenser story
Kuttner is asked about Weatherups phone numbers, and his connections with Mulcaire – can’t remember
Kuttner vehemently denies being involved with any conspiracy to hack phone messages with Weatherup
Memorandum by Goodman to Phil Hall with credits and payments for ‘Matey’ in 1998 for background information on page lede
BREAKING: first Goodman mention of codename for Mulcaire – Matey – in email to Phil Hall in 1998
Kuttner shown by police the Miskiw/Mulcaire contract for 2001 for “Euro Research”
Kuttner has “no recollection” of the Mulcaire contract in his police interview, being read out in Court 12 of Old Bailey
Kuttner recognises the Miskiw signature in 2002 Mulcaire contract.
BREAKING: Kuttner asked about such high value Mulcaire contract in 2002 “I would expect his was approved by then editor”

Note: All the defendants deny all the charges. The trial continues.

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Previous Posts
Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 11 Dec
Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 12 Dec
Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 13 Dec

Links: The Trial So Far | Full Trial Summary | Indexed Evidence | Breaking News

3 thoughts on “Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 17 Dec

  1. Pingback: Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 18 Dec | Live Tweeting the hacking trial

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