Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 25 Apr

Friday 25 April 2014

The Cross-Examination of Andy Coulson Continues
Counsel for Clive Goodman continues questioning Andy Coulson
Coulson questioned on his consideration of resignation
The Prosecution Cross-Examine Andy Coulson
Coulson questioned about affair with Rebekah Brooks
Miskiw, Thurlbeck and the Milly Dowler Story
Police Interviews
Coulson’s Desk Diaries
School of Excellence and Dark Arts
Coulson questioned on the Milly Dowler Story
Coulson questioned on Glen Mulcaire
Neville Thurlbeck and the Blunkett voicemails

The Cross-Examination of Andy Coulson Continues
Counsel for Clive Goodman continues questioning Andy Coulson
Back at the #hackingtrial with an early start because we’ll break at lunch today and the afternoon devoted to legal argument
David Spens QC, for Clive Goodman former NOTW Royal Editor, continues his cross examination of Andy Coulson, former NOTW editor
Justice Saunders says “I’m giving up on numbering….” over new pages inserted into Goodman’s defence bundle.
Coulson questioned on his consideration of resignation
We’re now at Christmas period 2006 when, Coulson has said in previous evidence, he was thinking of resigning.
02/01/07 article by Roy Greenslade about ‘phone message tapping’ cited by Spens “Questions the PCC must ask the NOTW”
Greenslade asks if “any other NOTW reporter tapped phones…. or used someone… did NOTW execs or staff know…. internal investigation”
Coulson agrees that these were “all perfectly reasonable questions for the PCC to ask” but he’d already decided to resign – but not told NI
Coulson “I didn’t do anything to my mind to prevent the PCC asking questions if they proposed” – but he resigned and questions weren’t asked
Coulson says “I’m not the PCC was on my mind when I resigned” in regard to questions which could have exposed previous Thurlbeck questions
09/01/07 NI lawyer emails Coulson about Goodman unable to meet. “Keeping you posted” says Spens. Coulson: “Appears to be so, yes”
13/01/07 Coulson emails NI exec his ‘final thoughts’ after discussing previous day “our plan will only work… if there’s a clean break”
14/01/07 Coulson emails NI exec with draft resignation letter: “a few issues have come to mind over the weekend”
14/01/07 draft resignation letter Coulson takes “ultimate responsibility” for Goodman: “I knew nothing of Clive’s illegal actions”
15/01/07 Coulson emails NI exec again “if my resignation is to play out in the way we both hope, our discussions will have to remain secret”
Coulson explains the plan – he didn’t want news of his resignation to leak out before Goodman’s sentencing.
Spens suggests that “if Mr Goodman knew you were to resign his faint prospect of keeping employment would go.” Coulson: “wasn’t on my mind”
Justice Saunders wonders if another interpretation would be Coulson wanted terms of severance to be kept secret. Coulson thinks not a factor
21/01/07 Coulson emails NI Exec “I also want to remove the mention of my not knowing what Goodman was up to… provoke Clive”
Coulson’s resignation statement now has been amended to omit the line “Although I knew nothing of Clive’s illegal actions they were wrong”
Spens says the omission of this line is because he was “fearful of provoking Mr Goodman into telling” “No, that’s not true” says Coulson
23/01/07 NI Lawyer emails Coulson: “Clive will prob be couple of hours… but need to work out with you what… I say about future”
Coulson replies that NI Lawyer should keep NI exec informed about meeting with Goodman.
Spens: “Why should [NI lawyer] work out with you…. what needs to be said” Coulson: “I knew I’d no longer have any say over Clive’s future”
Coulson denies not telling Goodman about his resignation because of what he feared Goodman might say.
26/01/07 Goodman’s sentencing hearing – in his mitigation had no reference to Coulson’s knowledge or approval.
05/02/07 Goodman is dismissed by NI exec. Coulson says it came as a surprise to him.
Spens suggests Coulson was “keeping the lid” on Goodman “all the way through” from previous august.
Coulson agrees he got three years salary as his severance from NI: £600k.
Coulson says the phrase “rogue reporter was no coined by me…. I used it in the context of Goodman going behind my back”
Spens says Coulson’s rogue reporter line was untrue for two reasons because he knew about Thurlbeck: knew about hacking. Coulson denies this
Coulson adds that, in addition to his wife and NI exec, he spoke to Rebekah Brooks about his resignation in 2007
The Prosecution Cross-Examine Andy Coulson
Coulson questioned about affair with Rebekah Brooks
Edis now takes up cross examination of Coulson, starting chronologically going back to 1998 and his relationship with Brooks.
Edis cites the 2004 Brooks letter to Coulson: “I don’t remember receiving it” he confirms.
Edis asks if Brooks’ phrase “I’ve been waiting six years for you” was true?
Coulson says relationship started in 1998 – ended soon after – started again possibly end of 2003. “From 2004 onwards..affair did continue”
Coulson says the affair with Brooks continued until 2007 when he left the NOTW.
BREAKING: according to Coulson his affair with Rebekah Brooks lasted, on and off, nine years from 1998 to 2007
Coulson says that he had a “different interpretation” of their relationship to Brooks over “six years waiting”.
Coulson says that by the time he arrived at NOTW he and Brooks “had a very close relationship”
Edis points out how Coulson used the word “we” in his description early years of NOTW: “We were a team…. but don’t want to overstate ‘we’
Miskiw, Thurlbeck and the Milly Dowler Story
Coulson says the elevation of Miskiw to investigations editor in 2000: “we needed to find another role for him”
Edis asks of Miskiw: “Was he good at investigations?” Coulson: “I didn’t think the investigations unit was charging on all cylinders”
Edis turns to the “problem” of Thurlbeck that summer of 2000: he’d been prosecuted and acquitted of a criminal offence” in July 2000
Edis points out Thurlbeck was prosecuted for paying a police officer, but acquitted because no evidence of payments.
“Everyone at NOTW knew… because of traumatic event, paying policemen was an absolutely no-no” says Edis. Coulson agrees.
Edis says “anyone paying police officers should ring very loud alarm bells”: Coulson: “It should have done”.
Coulson agrees that it’s “very possible” he moved Milly Dowler story: “I’m quite happy to agree that… I was responsible”
“That means you were aware of the content of the first edition” says Edis of Milly Dowler story. Coulson agrees he made a judgement.
“That judgement wasn’t just about the content of the story… but about the mix of the paper” says Coulson.
“I think it’s possible that I read it” says Coulson. Saunders points out that he moved it because of hoax content – i.e. hoax voicemail
Coulson accepts that he knew that Thurlbeck hacked Blunkett’s voicemails.
Coulson says he remembers discussing Nine Consultancy, but can’t remember which budget.
“I don’t accept there was any conversation to continue Nine Consultancy… I inherited Nine Consultancy” says Coulson.
Edis points out that Nine Consultancy wasn’t in the budget till 2001. “There was a mention… at some point” says Coulson.
Coulson accepts he “agree retainer… that turned out to be the Alexander payments”: though he says he never knew the name.
“I accept that I agreed this trial period should happen” says Coulson of Goodman project with Mulcaire.
Police Interviews
Edis asks why Coulson didn’t give his “innocent explanation” of these things to the police.
“Mr Coulson, you are a powerful and intelligent man: not the kind of person to meekly take advice” Edis on Coulson’s no comment to police
“I’m not a lawyer” replies Coulson “and I was happy to take advice”
Edis reads out Coulson’s prepared statement on his arrest on 08/07/11 expressing disappointment over his arrest over phone hacking.
Coulson’s prepared statement says in 2011 “I want to deal with all the allegations… but have been advised not to respond”
“What do you think you were achieving… saying no comment every time they asked you about Mulcaire… a disastrous course” says Edis
“It was a pretty traumatic time, and I was following the advice of my lawyers” says Coulson.
Edis points out police caution that no comment interviews could lead juries to suspect “you’d all make it up since”
“I followed legal advice, that’s all I can say” says Coulson of his no comment interviews.
Coulson points out “I’d made approaches to police to talk voluntarily… to avoid a traumatic experience at home”?
“It wasn’t much of a surprise” says Coulson of his arrest: “Because I’d read it in the Guardian the day before. But still traumatic event”
Coulson says there was not much disclosure from the police. Edis: “How much disclosure did you need to tell the truth?”
“You avoided making any admissions about Blunkett, Milly Dowler, Alexander payements, because you hoped they wouldn’t find out” says Edis
Edis says the evidence on Blunkett is so “overwhelming… you had to make the admission”. “No, I made the admission honestly” says Coulson
Coulson doesn’t accept Edis suggestion he made the Blunkett admission right at the end of the process.
Coulson “can’t remember” if he spoke to Brooks when he knew he was to be arrested: “It’s possible”
Coulson describes the events of early July 2011 and Milly Dowler story a “terrible time”
“It was under your watch that he got his first contract” says Edis of Mulcaire: “You two were working together”
Edis points out that Kuttner has a medical condition affecting his memory: “there’s nothing wrong with your memory is there?”
Coulson says he felt “profoundly depressed” about closure of NOTW, but accepts its possible he talked to Brooks.
Edis says Coulson made a “prepared statement criticising the police … is that a strategy you had discussed with Mrs Brooks?” Coulson “No”
Coulson’s Desk Diaries
Edis turns to Coulson’s 2005 desk diary “relied upon as evidence” in previous testimony.
“Where are the others?” asks Edis of Coulson’s other desk diaries. “They’re with my solicitor” says Coulson.
Edis asks how Coulson ended up with his desk diaries after his resignation in 2007?
Edis asks where Coulson’s desk diaries were on the day of his arrest. “On that day your house was searched and no documents discovered”
Coulson agrees that as an editor he still used notebooks. He doesn’t think he did with Blunkett conversation.
Coulson agrees that the Blunkett conversation was “off the record” but he knew it was being recorded: but he thought notes ‘inappropriate”
Edis points out that Coulson takes a lot of notes on his laptop: “Where are your notes from your time as Editor and Deputy Editor of NOTW?”
Coulson says that after his departure from NOTW in 2007 his PA took his notes and diaries to her home.
“I don’t remember there being any notebooks… I don’t remember if I gave any notebooks to my solicitor from time at NOTW” says Coulson
Coulson says a couple of weeks later he went over to his PA: she had a punchbag, loads of photos, awards, various things
Edis points out there are no notebooks in existence from Coulson’s 7 years at NOTW
“Are there any notebooks in existence?” asks Edis. Coulson says he has notebooks from his time in politics.
“I’m not saying I never wrote notes” says Coulson: “I’ve never been a big note-taker, and certainly wasn’t as an editor”
Edis inserts a new page into the bundles for the jury.
Edis turns to 25/11/06 email from Coulson to his PA asking her to print out his drafts email inbox
Edis explains – to those who might not know – how a drafts folder where an email is “composed but not sent”
Coulson agrees the drafts folder was where he kept personal stuff: even his PA didn’t know the password to his email.
25/11/06 was just a few days before Goodman was going to plead guilty. He can’t remember deleting them, but wanted hard copies of emails
Coulson says “there were some things in there to do with my business” and “some of those drafts touched on my work as editor”
“Where are they?” asks Edis of these drafts. “With my solicitor” says Coulson. He engaged that solicitor after he resigned from Downing St
A lot of snapping of ring binders as new pages added to burgeoning bundles. Coulson “getting a bit lost”: Edis replies “I don’t blame you”
Coulson confirms he kept some contemporaneous documents for years after NOTW resignation and gave to solicitor in 2011.
Coulson says that he has not only provided the 2005 diary from these documents, but a fuller copy of his Think Tank memo.
Edis explains that the prosecution copy of this memo was partially illegible: Coulson’s copy comes from his drafts folder during the trial
School of Excellence and Dark Arts
Edis asks about this “School of Excellence’ event at NOTW since we’re on this topic. Coulson confirms it was the first time it happened.
14/09/04 is the date of this document: there’s another email referring to a January 2005 event: “it was a regular process…. monthly”
Edis asks who was going to brief the NI lawyer about the School of Exellence on “dangers of dark arts”: Coulson can’t remember it was him
Edis asks what Coulson meant by ‘dark arts’: he says surveillance and other subterfuge fell under that category.
Edis “This is just 2 months after you discovered Thurlbeck hacking… did you mention that” Coulson: “I don’t remember it being discussed”
“Shouldn’t it be the top of your agenda” asks Edis: “that hacking phones won’t do”. “They should have known that” says Coulson
Coulson confirms he told NI lawyer and NI exec about Thurlbeck hacking: he thinks it’s possible he might have told someone else.
Coulson says the admission of the Thurlbeck hacking is in his defence case statement from July last year.
Edis says Coulson only admitted to Thurlbeck hacking after seeing the prosecution evidence from Blunkett and NI safe
Coulson accepts these two new bits of prosecution evidence came well before the trial.
Coulson accepts his admission of moving Milly Dowler story only happened recently, after defence statement.
Coulson says “internally I was always clear I had authorised retainer” for Alexander project. “Internally. what do you mean?” asks Edis.
Coulson accepts that it was “only in this witness box” that he publicly acknowledged Alexander payments
15 min break
Coulson questioned on the Milly Dowler Story
Back after the break at #hackingtrial – Andrew Edis QC, for the crown, continues his cross examination of Andy Coulson.
Edis adduces the green newspaper bundle for two different areas of the case against Coulson
Edis summarises NOTW production cycle – live sport has to wait till end of the week.
Edis talks about the back of the book – the furniture – like gardening “isn’t dynamic in the same extent as a football match”
“Very little breaking news on the gardening front” agrees Coulson. Pages 1-37 are the main news sections.
“The focus for three days of the working week are on these 37 pages of the paper” says Edis of News, Features and Columnists.
Coulson agrees two NOTW Friday conferences focus on the front of the paper: he goes to week April 2002 when Coulson took over from Brooks
“You’d be extremely keen to make sure you got it right” says Edis of NOTW. “I’d also make sure I got it on time” replies Coulson.
“Publishing things that turn out not to be true is a major hazard for a newspaper… a thing you really want to avoid” says Edis.
Coulson agrees over the importance of accuracy. Edis asserts that phone hacking a good device to make sure things true. Coulson disagrees
Front page of 17/04/02 NOTW had a splash on Beppo leaving Eastenders that cost £30k: “Not a particularly mind blowing story” says Edis.
“Not a bad splash” says Coulson. He agrees that Brooks was involved in Beppo story.
Coulson agrees with Edis: “If Milly Dowler had been found alive… this would have been a better story than Beppo”
Coulson agrees that the misplaced “father theory” was in his mind at the time: Edis says she could have run away.
Coulson agrees that what happened in Telford on that Friday would have changed the story: 7 journalists sent there. 2 in London plus Kuttner
“It sounds like there was quite a lot of interest in it at NOTW” says Edis of the 11 journalists working on it.
“The only people who would take this seriously were if they heard the voicemail” says Edis. Coulson: “I don’t know what Thurlbeck thought”
Coulson denies that he would have known about all these regional journalists. Thurlbeck was acting editor.
Coulson says he couldn’t “micromanage” journalists, but thinks that the Dowler story arose in “general terms” in news conferences.
Edis says journalists dispatched between Friday conferences: “Did no one say if we find her, what do we do about Beppo boss?”
Coulson can’t remember who told him about the Telford story – only his reaction it was nonsense.
Coulson can’t remember anyone saying that. He says it was clearly “nonsense” – her fate had been clearly publicised.
Coulson cannot recall anyone saying “no it’s true because”: “It’s 12 years ago, I can’t remember the conversation, only that it was nonsense
“So you can only remember that bit of the conversation?” says Edis.
Edis turns to politics on page 2, glamour on page 3, 4 and 5 page splash on Beppe (not much reading): 6 & 7 politics and opinion
Page 8 is an ad: Milly is the whole of page 9 in this edition of NOTW: Coulson accepts “this is an important part of the paper”
“It’s a bit of new isn’t it… it’s a news story” says Edis of Milly story in this edition of NOTW. Coulson: “I would have wanted to cover”
“Now we know this story came from a phone hack” says Edis: Coulson said at the time he thought it could have come from police.
Coulson says he doesn’t know who wrote the Milly story – Robert Kellaway had the by-line. He accepts he was “part of decision process”
“I was heavily involved in the Beppe buy-up” says Coulson: “it’s possible” that night editor reworked because of “new picture”
Edis asks why – though it was an exclusive – who left the exclusive slug out of the Milly Dowler story: “I can’t say at this distance”
Edis says the removal of exclusive “was part of the process of hiding the real source”: Coulson denies this.
Edis cites an “assertion of fact” “at 10.13 am… a woman rang” in the story. “That isn’t rubbish” says Edis.
“It took the view the story was rubbish… I don’t know if I read it from top to bottom” says Coulson: “a clear error in the mix of paper”
Edis points out the article has “accurate quotations” from voicemails. Coulson says he “may have only read to fourth paragraph”
“If you can’t be bothered to read it, there’s not much chance of your readers reading it” says Edis.
“I absolutely made decisions on partial readings” says Coulson of NOTW. Edis moves onto to pages 10 and 11.
Further pages in that NOTW editions have political column, SBS news, Beckham, and Sophie Wessex
Coulson says he remembers the Sophie Wessex story from April 2002
Edis turns to pages in the Brooks bundle which “splendidly” are consecutively numbered. Brooks emails Miskiw about Wessex story.
18/04/01 Brooks email to Miskiw: “we have to be so careful and make sure everything we do is inside the law…. why did Greg need telling?”
“I don’t remember anything illegal in Sophie Wessex story” says Coulson: “It was a fake sheikh exercise”
“We have to learn some lessons from Sophie” says Brooks in the email. Coulson says he remembered it being “quite complicated”
Coulson reiterates there was “no hint of illegality” in Wessex story: “route absolutely laid out in story in the paper”
Edis goes through the other pages NOTW on 17/04/02 – more news stories, promotions, a bit of glamour, Ad for the Sun, Ali Ross, Glamour
Towards the end of the paper – page 30 – the story Coulson decided to move, and “where Milly ended up in final edition”
Edis now turns to page 9 of 2nd edition – Milly story has been replaced by SBS story, Pierce Brosnan and three new “shorts” fill the page.
Coulson accept this new page 9 is a “total redraw”: the “benefit of the move…. alter the mix of the front half of the paper in mono pages”
“The purpose being to bring a picture of a scantily dressed woman to page eleven?” asks Edis. “Yes,” replies Coulson.
Milly story no longer a full page: timeline gone, and all quotations from voicemail. “That has nothing to do with content of story?” Edis.
Edis asks why “verbatim quotations from voicemails were left out?” Coulson can’t remember and doesn’t know why.
“I’m very sure of it” says Coulson of the mix of the paper being prime. He “doesn’t remember” talking to Brooks about Milly story.
Edis confuses Beppe with Beppo again: Coulson says both he and Brooks involved in that buy up that week.
Coulson denies that Brooks would have been interested in Dowler story because it could have impacted on Beppe front page.
“We did talk” says Coulson. “But it’s an opportunity to show you can do the job…. I wouldn’t have called her every five minutes”
Edis says there are “quite lengthy conversations” during the important parts of NOTW production cycle. Coulson: “Yes, we would have talked”
18/07/04 Edis turns to the Sven story – a buy up for £150k for Fariah Alam.
Week 1 of Svengate: Alam isn’t mentioned. Week 2 after denials, looks like a cover-up “I think ‘gate’ massively overused by newspapers”
Edis goes through the documents relevant to Milly Dowler from the Brooks bundle – the news schedules when Coulson acting as deputy
According to News Editor, Thurlbeck’s, internal NOTW list: he’s got three reporters working on it, and two articles.
The two stories are SA Milly and RS Milly – Sarah Arnold and Ryan Sabey – but Rob Kellaway credited, though claimed he didn’t write.
Edis points out that these two stories were written without benefit of police information: Coulson points out that Peter Rose crime reporter
Edis suggests that the two friday evening stories written on the basis “Telford information true”: “I don’t know this” says Coulson.
Coulson says a Sarah Arnold story appeared later: he thinks that the relative talking could be the Ryan Sabey story.
That was 10/04/02 – a Sarah Arnold story on Milly appears on 17/04/02 – would have been discussed in conference Coulson agrees
“I’m sure that Rebekah read the paper… I would hope the third edition so she didn’t spot my mistake” says Coulson.
Edis points out that the SAMilly story appears in conferences for rest of week – until replaced by SADowler on the Friday
“Just to be clear the ‘mistake’ is something you’ve never mentioned until you went into the witness box” says Edis.
Kuttner had spoken of a ‘recast’ story based on police info: he asks Coulson if this was the story? “Impossible to say” replies Coulson
Coulson says he didn’t know his managing editor was calling Shropshire and contacting Surrey Police.
Coulson says he would have discussed the paper with Brooks on her return – “but not this specific story”
Previous evidence has shown NOTW was offering a reward for Milly Dowler: Coulson agrees most likely he or Brooks would have to decide that
Coulson questioned on Glen Mulcaire
“That will do for Milly Dowler for a moment” says Edis. He now moves onto 18/08/02 and Geoff Sweet’s article on Glenn Mulcaire.
Justice Saunders disagrees the fate of Wimbledon FC was an unimportant story.
The NOTW article in 2002 says “Glenn Mulcaire worked for NOTW investigations team”
Coulson agrees that the Sports Editor would have put on his list for editors conference: but unlikely to have talked about it.
“I know that’s the least interesting sport page” says Coulson of Mulcaire article. “You’re interested in football” says Edis.
“A guy works for NOTW who plays football you’ve never heard of” says Edis. “You’d find that interesting” Coulson denies seeing it.
Coulson says he never heard of Mulcaire’s nickname ‘Trigger’
Edis cites a Dave Rigby email sending a PA story about Gordon Taylor “contacted by Scotland Yard…. hacked by “Glenn Trigger Mulcaire”
“Not a very closely guarded secret” says Edis. “PA might have picked it up from a cutting” says Coulson.
Edis turns to emails between Coulson and Goodman in January 2003 about acquiring a green book.
Neville Thurlbeck and the Blunkett voicemails
Edis asks Coulson to “cast his mind back” to July 2004 when he spoke to Neville Thurlbeck over Blunkett’s voicemails.
Coulson reiterates Thurlbeck’s “potential story of Blunkett having an affair… with publisher of Spectator magazine”
“He then explained to me he knew this as a result of information from phone messages” says Coulson of Thurlbeck’s call in 2004
Coulson: “I was shocked… I believed I used colourful language… and told him to stop… Blunkett close to the paper. Close to my boss”
Coulson thinks it was “a combination of someone… close to my boss… and the breach of the privacy… that made me tell him to stop”
Coulson says he would have been “less concerned” if it wasn’t phone hacking. “I considered it to be a breach of privacy” says Coulson
“Publishing stories about people having affairs is almost always a breach of privacy” says Edis.
Coulson says “it’s possible I asked other questions but I don’t remember doing so”
Edis “The fact there had been a shocking and intrusive investigation into the Home Secretary just vanished from your mind because of Sven?”
“Telling them to stop doesn’t actually address the problem because it’s already done” says Edis
“You never asked him where he got the voicemails from?” asks Edis. “Whether I asked him the question I don’t remember” says Coulson.
“You assumed he was doing it himself” asks Edis “That assumption wasn’t based on anything at all.”
“You already knew you had Mulcaire on a retainer hacking voicemails” says Edis. Coulson. “That’s not true… I didn’t know about Mulcaire”
Coulson agrees that he “failed” but does not accept he “turned a blind eye” over Thurlbeck voicemails.
Break till 11.30 on Monday.

Note: All the defendants deny all the charges. The trial continues.

Related Articles
Stuart Kuttner Emails to Surrey Police over Milly Dowler
Kuttner Notes of Conversation with Goodman Just After his Arrest
Some of the Mysteries of Phone Hacking – Unlocked
Mulcaire Sanctioned by Spooks – Malign Influence of NI Lawyer on Goodmans Legal Team
Texts to Rebekah Brooks from Tony Blair on the Eve of her Arrest

Previous Posts
Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 22 Apr
Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 23 Apr
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Links: The Trial So Far | Full Trial Summary | Indexed Evidence | Breaking News

6 thoughts on “Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 25 Apr

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