Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 3 Apr

Thursday 3 April 2014

Mark Hanna’s Cross Examination by the Prosecution continues
Hanna questioned about Charlie Brooks Bags
Hanna claims he never saw the Black Bag
Hana questioned on “Pizzagate”
Observation of Police Cars
Hanna questioned on Security Team
More on the Black Bag and movement of belongings
Justice Saunders questions Mark Hanna
Counsel for Mark Hanna Closes his Defence
William Clegg QC asks some final questions

Mark Hanna’s Cross Examination by the Prosecution continues
Hanna questioned about Charlie Brooks Bags
Justice Saunders apologises for the delay at the #hackingtrial – someone had to get off a bus at the Strand.
So back with Andrew Edis QC cross-examining NI Head of Security, Mark Hanna.
Edis is talking about the “Broadsword/Danny Boy” texts between two security operatives.
“They were obviously under the impression they were doing something secret” says Edis. “I can’t answer for everyone” says Hanna
Hanna claims he never saw the Black Bag
“I never gave him any instructions about the black bag. The first time I saw it physically was in this court” says Hanna. A photo last year
“I didn’t have a clue what they were talking about a black bag. When that was put to me I couldn’t answer any questions” says Hanna.
Edis: “That’s the answer you didn’t give them because you decided to keep it secret… at that stage you didn’t know what DNA would show”
“You know the DNA evidence. The handle was sampled” says Edis. No profiles attributable to you on the handle.
Until yesterday no-one’s gone to sample the DNA: “but now there’s no point because you handled it in the witness box:” says Edis.
Edis says the prosecution never knew Hanna claimed he’d never seen the black nylon bag until after Hanna had handled it in the witness box
“I don’t know if anyone else spoke to the team that night… The team leaders were running their teams” says Hanna of the night of Pizzagate
Hanna says he made inquiries about delivery of Charlie’s bags when Ingham went off shift, and someone was delayed in traffic.
Hanna can’t say who beyond Jorsling, Brooks Johnson, and Cox knew about the return of the bag.
“You were in charge of these people, you must know they could be trusted to keep their mouths shut if necessary” says Edis.
Hanna says he spent about 45 minute with Geddes, head of ICP, on the Monday 18/07/11.
“Meeting Will Geddes was going to be the pinnacle of that day… But if you’re asking me three days later without call data” says Hanna.
“Let’s see what you can do with the benefit of the phone schedule then” says Edis, and goes back to call data.
Hanna looks at the schedule he says he met Geddes at 12.45/6. Probably “separated” around 1.30 pm.
During this meeting with Geddes, Hanna spoke to Paul Edwards, the Brooks’ driver, about Charlie’s bags being missing.
Hanna can’t remember much about the conversation with Johnson. He “may” have said “we can’t find the bags”.
Yesterday Hanna had said Charlie’s “bags” and then corrected to “stuff”: “That’s the word I’ve been using all the way through” says Hanna
Some debate about “they” and “the”: Hanna: “You can play around with words all day,” says Hanna. Edis: “It’s not just playing with words”
“I don’t think he would use the word ‘bags'” says Hanna. “I can’t answer why he’d use a certain word or not”
Hanna insists Jorsling had “handed back” the bags to Charlie.
“I think what’s important to remember is all the calls and texts from Charlie Brooks and Chris Palmer prior to this” says Hanna.
“I put to you the problem was the bags weren’t the rubbish bin” says Edis. Hanna: “I can’t recall the exact content of that conversation”
“It would be a considerable surprise to you” says Edis. Hanna: “I believed last night that Charlie Brooks got the bags back”
Hanna says “absolutely not” involved in Jorsling putting bags behind the bins. Edis: “Jorsling is in the business of doing what he’s todl”
Hanna says these security operatives have to “use their initiative”.
“Yes,” says Hanna to the question it would have been “a bit of a shock” if Edwards had told him the bags were behind the bins.
Jorsling said he spoke to Palmer who “smelled of red wine” but he “placed the bags on the floor”
“It sounded like he placed them on the floor and handed the pizzas over” says Hanna of Jorsling’s account of Charlie’s bags.
“Everyone else knew they were supposed to behind the bin except you” says Edis. Justice Saunders interrupts “that’s a comment”
“It was immediately apparent to you this was a serious situation” says Edis. Hanna says the bags were more of a “nuisance”
Hanna says he was either told by the driver or one of the ICP team about the police having Charlie’s bags
Hana questioned on “Pizzagate”
Edis asks Hanna about “Pizzagate” and turns to Blackhawk one text: texting Geddes during that lunch “Can you call ref Pizzagate”
“Did Mr Geddes talk about that text message?” asks Edis of the Pizzagate text. Geddes calls Johnson on his mobile while at lunch with Hanna
“I don’t remembering listening into his conversation” says Hanna of Pizzagate moment with Geddes and Johnson.
Blackhawk 2 text to both Hanna and Geddes around this time, from Jubilee Barn about Brooks’ mother leaving for Cheshire.
Hanna agrees he had security team at Jubilee Barn that weekend 17/07/11 : two man security detail in a car
“Actually there was somewhere there at Jubilee Barn to get Mrs Weir through the press” says Edis. Hanna says they were located further down
“Was the car capable of moving…. of getting her through the press” asks Edis. Hanna “his job was to make sure no wanted visitors”
“The journey you took with her was completely unnecessary” says Edis of Hanna’s return to Jubilee Barn. Hanna thought a nice thing to do
Hanna agrees that Deborah Weir didn’t ask for an escort to Jubilee Barn, but agreed to it. “I had time on my hands” he says.
“Filth all over the underground car park… Mark is aware” says Blackhawk text: Edis “Was there any other Mark involved in this carry on?”
Edis asks what the point of internet evidence of someone throwing a Pizza at Alex Ferguson: “looking at it on internet” says Hanna
“No one had thrown a pizza at anyone?” asks Edis. “Fortunately not” says Hanna.
On Pizzagate term: “Watergate was a cover-up” says Edis. Hanna say: “the first Watergate I came across was at the Tower of London””
Observation of Police Cars
Text to Hanna talks about two cars possibly “OB” – Old Bill – on Lott’s Roundabout. “What was the purpose of reports on police?” asks Edis
“Throughout the whole of this, the activities and plans of police were at forefront” says Edis. Hanna says DCMS was his major concern
Justice Saunders says police aren’t a “suspect vehicle”. Hanna says his team would report all kinds of vehicles.
“I didn’t not want to know where the police were located at any point at all” says Hanna.
Hanna questioned on Security Team
Edis asks if there is any family connection between and Lee Sandell: he “used to be my nephew since marriage”: known him since birth.
Sandell lives in Caterham in Surrey. He has a News International email address. George Jenkin got him in for an interview.
Hanna says he saw Lee Sandell’s CV on a desk. He wouldn’t have to vet him because he already had a security license.
Edis cites an email to Lee Sandell and Luke Aspin: they worked split shifts. Technically employed by Advance Security: full time at News Int
This email explains who was hanging around outside Wapping. “That rather suggests Sandell was a relatively senior position”
“Lee Sandell was a line manager” says Hanna. “A man you’ve known all his life” says Edis. George Jenkin, coincidentally, employed him
George Jenkin has previously been seen in a photo in Hanna’s garden.
“Did this young man who was witness to your activities on that Sunday actually owe you his job” asks Edis of Sandell. Hanna: “No he didn’t”
25/01/11 the day before Weeting established, Brooks emails Lewis and Hanna about having her office swept for bugs.
“Did you know there was reason to believe the police might be coming round the next day” asks Edis. Hanna says he didn’t.
Hanna is asked why Brooks used the words “discreetly” on that day? “Presumably you always did it discreetly” says Edis.
Hanna says it mean he should sweep for bugs out of hours.
Edis turns to the first company car he received – a Volvo on 04/07/11. Prior to then he had his own car. His wife had a Clio.
“Did she mind you parking it in London for two weeks” asks Edis of this Clio. Hanna says his wife had another car.
“What happened that weekend could only happen if the cars were carefully place, and there was a plan” says Edis.
Hanna accepts he didn’t have to drive the Range Rover. Sandell had the Clio: “Was that luck? Or was that a plan?” Hanna says luck
Edis asks what “Will Smith” has to do with this case? Hanna: “I don’t know a Will Smith” He’s a witness for Hanna.
Edis asks about John Stone Wiggs: Hanna says he was a security professional. George Jenkin another security professional and a friend
Edis asks if Hanna’s friends Neil Evans and Kirsty Millett had anything to do with that weekend: no.
Edis asks about Hanna’s night with Hernandez. Hanna says he did talk about having a fire and a bottle of wine “exactly what I did last night
Maybe Hanna thinks he said “I’d rather be at home having a fire” He can’t recall actually saying it.
“Did you say to him you provided protection for Rebekah Brooks” asks Edis. “Everyone was involved in doing that” says Hanna.
“Did you say to him you’d done protection at her house” asks Edis. “I wouldn’t say that… he’s junior at the team.”
Hanna denies telling Hernandez he ever acted as a “back up driver”: though he would provide mobile security for Brooks.
“I would take a few tasks” admits Hanna. “But Mr Hernandez would know”. He probably did say Brooks was a good boss and kind.
Hanna repeats that he never dug a hole in his garden. He might have used the expression ‘fire pit’
Edis shows photos of Hanna’s firepit. He accepts he does burn wood and stuff in “firepit”: but would not have used expression then
“I don’t recall having this conversation in the first place” says Hanna. He denies he was “drunk or indiscreet”
“He’s a junior member of staff… someone I was working with that evening” says Hanna of his conversation the night NOTW closed.
“You were certainly aware at that moment how important police thought computers were” says Edis of Hanna bagging up NOTW devices.
More on the Black Bag and movement of belongings
“Let’s go back to the black bag and what happened on the Saturday” says Edis. Hanna denies knowing anything about black bag.
Hanna’s evidence is that black bag wasn’t in the Range Rover, but somehow it got into Thomas More Square.
“You agree it can’t have been in the Range Rover” says Saunders. “It must have travelled in another vehicle.” says Edis.
Edis goes through the other vehicles involved. Jorsling was in a Golf.
Hanna accepts the Golf, Audi and other vehicle set off from Enstone – he saw them leave.
“It was obvious Rebekah was going to get into the Chauffeur driven car” says Hanna. No plans for him to drive Range Rover.
“I don’t recall seeing any bags at all” says Hanna. He says he doesn’t know what happened with overnight bags.
Justice Saunders clarifies: holdalls come out of Audi on the Monday. Hanna says he didn’t know before he say it on CCTV.
“Did you see the Golf being packed?” asks Edis. Hanna says he arrived at Enstone before that moment.
“Was Mr Jorsling acting under your instructions in taking property from Enstone Manor” asks Edis. “No I wasn’t” says Hanna.
Hanna says the black bag had nothing to do with him, and he was unaware Jorsling was taking electronic equipment to Wapping.
“At some point, if you’re right, the property of the Brooks’ must have been divided up. Did you know about that?” Hanna: “No I did not”
Hanna says it was the first time he was aware he was being asked to look after stuff was on the Sunday afternoon.
Saunders: “Who decided to take things back to Thomas More Square” Hanna says it was just him.
Hanna agrees that his work by done by the time he left Thames Quay. He said he decided TMS was better because it was “a central location”
“If this porn was so potentially embarassing, why not put it in the bin…. The obvious thing to do if other things involved” says Edis.
“If you’re assuming there was a coverup, that was false. TMS square was filled with policemen. All available to search” says Hanna
“Really” asks Edis about availability of NI to searches, pointing out the police didn’t even search Brooks’ PA office.
Hanna says they’ve asked for property records for lost property. The responsibility to record it would Ingham.
“Does she still work at News International?” asks Edis of Ingham. At first Hanna can’t answer that. She’s going to be a witness of his.
Hanna says he doesn’t know where Ingham works now.
Edis says there were two limbs to computer movements that day. He says the black bag went there.
Hanna says Jorsling seemed quite happy with his task of grabbing a Pizza and dropping off stuff.
“The stuff that came back was Mr Brooks… but that wasn’t all that was taken down” says Edis.
“The suggestion this is a spur of the moment decision, with Charlie Brooks chucking you some keys, is a lie too” says Edis. Hanna denies
“This whole operation of moving stuff secretly around the country was so dangerous it would have only be done for some purpose” says Edis
Hanna said I wouldn’t commit a crime for any person. I believed at what I’d done was legal.
Hanna is asked whether Charlie Brooks knew about the delivery of all the property. Clegg, for Charlie, intervenes.
“The fact of the matter is you’ve kept the details of your defence under your hat” says Edis. Hanna says he’s just taken legal advice.
Hanna agrees Lee Sandell was fully involved in this exercise. Edis reminds the jury he is facing trial.
“Both myself and Lee wouldn’t do that” says Hanna of covering up. Brooks was not his boss at the time.
“It wouldn’t have done News Int any good if evidence of phone hacking or corrupt payments occurred.. danger to your employers” says Edis
Hanna says “I don’t think it was” a threat to News International. Edis says “things started going wrong when you joined them”
Justice Saunders questions Mark Hanna
Edis has finished his cross examination. Justice Saunders has some more questions about the handover of keys and bags.
Saunders asks about Hanna’s movements that Sunday: “did you actually say to Mr Brooks ‘I’m not going to London'”?
Justice Saunders asks about Hanna’s first recollection of having to look after ‘brown bag’ was on car journey back to London.
Saunders asks about Hanna’s problems accessing Chelsea Harbour: Charlie told him where fob was in car.
At that stage Charlie asked him to keep bag and look after “pornography” – Hanna thought it was legal pornography.
Hanna can’t recall if Charlie mentioned his additional computer.
Hanna agrees police search was “one of his considerations”. “I don’t really know what he wanted to do with the pornography” says Hanna
Hanna says he thought the brown bag also concealed pornography. He had not detailed knowledge of what was on it.
Justice Saunders asks if Charlie asked for a specific Pizza: Hanna said “I recall… he didn’t ask which”
Justice Saunders explores the “plan” describes in texts: Hanna says it was all about getting a fob.
“You devised this plan to enable Jorsling to get in” says Justice Saunders. Hanna says car entrance some distance from pedestrian one
Counsel for Mark Hanna Closes his Defence
William Clegg QC asks some final questions
On re-examination, William Clegg QC turns back to the black nylon bag who’s appearance at TMS has not been explained.
Hanna says the prosecution “are trying to allude” the black bag was in the Range Rover.
Clegg points out Hanna is seen leaving the Range Rover with only one bag.
“It was alleged initially I entered Jubilee Barn and stripped it of all it’s devices” says Hanna. “Absolutely no” truth in that allegation
Clegg goes back return of brown bag: ‘is that true?” Yes. Justice Saunders correct. Hanna took brown bag out without Charlie’s instructions
These statements Hanna confirms are true come from his first witness statement.
Clegg goes back to Hanna’s response to prosecution allegations he transported items from Oxfordshire.
In initial allegations the prosecution talks about ‘a bag’ being removed not from Enstone but Jubilee Barn.
Clegg asks Hanna to look again at original CCTV in slow motion; Edis agrees he is carrying the satchel. This is not in dispute.
Hanna says he was perturbed as anyone doubting his honesty about carrying the brown bag into the car park.
Clegg talks about the purpose of Sandell and Hanna returning to Jubilee Barn from Enstone. He asks about Deborah Weir’s ‘demeanour”
“She was certainly flustered when I went into the kitchen” says Hanna of Brooks’ mother. He had no idea whether she’d been to Enstone before
Hanna says the concern was about the media – and less about whether Deborah Weir knew the way back to Jubilee Barn or not.
Hanna explains the V-junction in the drive between approaches to Jubilee Barn and Castle Barn: about a quarter of mile from main road
Press were “restricted” to public highway: he says there was no other security at the main entrance saying ‘private lane’.
“The suggestion is that mum is a ‘convenient excuse’ for getting you back to Jubilee Barn” says Clegg. Hanna “Absolutely no truth in that”
Hanna denies there was any “cunning plan” to leaving the Clio in London that weekend.
“If it was a cunning plan, was the insurance arranged beforehand?” asks Clegg. “No,” replies Hanna.
Hanna says that, apart from having to drive Charlie’s Range Rover, he would have gone down to London with his wife to collect Clio.
Clegg has finished: Edis has two additional paragraphs for the case summary.
Justice Saunders apologises to the jury for the early half day. 10 a.m. tomorrow.

Note: All the defendants deny all the charges. The trial continues.

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Previous Posts
Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 31 Mar
Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 1 Apr
Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 02 Apr

Links: The Trial So Far | Full Trial Summary | Indexed Evidence | Breaking News

3 thoughts on “Hacking Trial Live Tweets – 3 Apr

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